From The Windup: Observations From The Cincy Stands

I reside in what Cubs fans call Wrigley North - I personally don't go to the any home Brewers-Cubs games because of the drunken obnoxiousness of some of the fans. From what I understand, the last series here at Miller was about 60-40, Brewers fans/Cubs fans. It's not for lack of support in Milwaukee (we'll pass over 3 million this year, with 41 sellouts so far - not bad for a very small market), but because natives will sell their tickets to Cubs fans for ridiculous amounts of money. I can make a huge profit and sit at home and watch the game and not have to be annoyed by too many pain in the butt fans in cubbie blue.

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I was at all three games of this series and sat in three different sections. Thankfully we weren't around any overly obnoxious fans from either side. Nobody said anything about my Cubs hat, and I didn't give anybody crap for being a Reds fan (of course, there were so few Reds fans there, it's not really a fair comparison I guess).

But regarding this: "Starting "Let's Go Cubbies" chants with a 12 run lead is unnecessary, and quite lame." I don't know, the Cubs bullpen has been so awful the past few games, they need all the insurance runs they can get...

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Cubs fans are often eager to gloss over the realities of market size when declaring their superior fandom. Here's the truth: the demand for tickets goes up when your team is good, and down when your team is bad. This is true for every single team. The reason that the Cubs can still sell out every game even when they're bad, is that the size of their supply of tickets is not proportional to the size of their market. Their demand goes down when they're bad, but it never falls below the supply of tickets (Wrigley's capacity). Miller Park seats about 10% of the population of Milwaukee, or about 2.5% of the Milwaukee metro area. If Wrigley field had like 150,000 seats (that number is assuming that the White Sox would draw half of the fan base, which they don't) and it sold out during a down year for the Cubs, then you might have some ground to stand on when it comes to fan loyalty. As it is, you don't.

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A few points:

1) Your rule of thumb in the very last paragraph doesn't work because of one reason - Cubs fans are just as obnoxious at home as they are on the road.

2) Cubs fans regularly have a large presence at all away games, even ones in cities that are nowhere near Chicago, such as Miami. This is because the Cubs, with a majority of their games broadcast nationally on WGN, are on in every market and thus have fans in all regions of the country. It is only mildly impressive that Wrigley sells out all their games because the market is so huge that tickets to all those September games are sold before the fans have any idea whether or not the Cubs will find themselves in a playoff chase that late. In 2006 when the Cubs were in last place, those games at the end of the season were all sold out, but if you went on eBay fans were practically giving away those tickets. If Cubs fans had the luxury of waiting to see how the team is doing before purchasing tickets, those games likely would not have been sell outs.

3) Great American Ballpark is a beautiful stadium and a fun place to catch a game, as is Wrigley. I have no idea what you mean by "overrated," and you failed to clarify.

4) This is really is just a bad article. It is more rant than reality, and I'll chalk it up to the fact that you are pissed because the Cubs have been playing horribly and look to be headed toward another first-round playoff exit. But if you want to keep doing this thing you call "journalism," next time you might want to sit down, take a deep breath, and try to actually think about what you're saying.

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Hogwash, my friend. I was there all three games, and I have been there for many many other Reds games. You think that the reason we get angry at Cubs fans is because our team is pathetic?

First, you lost 2 of the 3 games in typical Cubs tradition -- by blowing it. Second, I have seen many Reds losses -- it goes with the territory, unfortunately. Somehow we manage not to "take our anger out" on these other teams that beat us.

Your rant sounds like a 10 year old's argument until the very end, where you somehow happen to stumble on the real reason for what you saw on Saturday night: everyone hates Cubs fans. Saturday night, one of you idiots is jabbering back and forth with us, because this was the one night you were winning. Ok, fine. Part of the game, right? No problem. Then the idiot proceeds to call my sister a "bitch" and a "whore" (because she's a Reds fan, and obviously that makes sense). I go off on the dude, and the other Cubs fan next to him (who did not know him before the game) begins to explain that this is just "part of the experience"?

That is what is wrong with you people. You think throwing garbage on the field, cheering when Lou acts an idiot, and calling the opposing team's fans "bitches" is just "part of the experience."

Go home. Go drive your 5 hours back to Chicago after pumping money into our local economy and having one measly Soriano-saved win out of the series against one of the worst teams in baseball.

Not to mention that your seat sales jab is just ignorant. Chicago is a bigger city AND your stadium is smaller. But that isn't even the point. Your fans come to get tanked and rowdy. You don't CARE whether the team wins or loses as long as you don't remember anything after the 7th inning. Sorry, we do care. And we vote with our wallets. And we complain in op-eds. And we force Reds management to pay attention.

You really just DO NOT get it. But I'm not surprised.

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What did I see on the dugout in Cincy the other day? Cheerleaders shaking their behinds at the crowd. Charming. Creates a real family atmosphere. It is pathetic how some teams hire mascots and bimbos in a desperate attempt to get their own fans to come to the park. If the game itself is not enough, then it is time to relocate teams, or terminate the franchise.

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I'm a Reds fan, live a mile from the stadium and have gone to about 20 games this year. We let the Cubs take over by being whiny douches the entire season. When we go on a winning tear (which has been rare this season) we barely sell any more tickets. The Reds try to bribe us with dollar hot dogs and half price tickets and it doesn't matter. I went to the game on thursday and I'm surprised if there were 8000 people there.
I love the Reds and I try to support them, but how many Reds fans will drive 5 hours to go see a game, whether it's Pittsburgh, St. Louis, or Chicago. We are the most central team in the central and we act like whiny babies constantly.
We need to stop bitching about the cubs and start going to games. If the Reds see us selling out games then maybe they'll play better and actually show some effort.

With all that said, the Cubs fans do make it a big deal to come down and be dicks. throwing balls on the field, booing, disrespecting, and most of all being a little bitch when you just blew a save for the loss. Its not all of them, my best friend is a Cubs fan and we have a good time at the games together. I'd say 10% douche, but that goes a long way.

One final bitch about Cincy, Wrigley is awesome because even the people who can't get into the game have flooded the local bars surrounding the stadium showing fan pride. Great American is surrounded by the homeless.

PS I looked it up, last thursday there were 20,626 in attendance.

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Cincinnati a baseball town? Yeah on opening day.....

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i've been to wrigley ten times-- always from out of town-- i have never had any trouble getting a ticket-- there is not one hotel concierge who can't call a ticket service and get me a ticket-- and for a reasonable price-- don't tell me how your fans support the team better-- scalpers buy thousands of tickets that visitors pay for-- try to get a ticket in NYC or Boston-- you can't -- they are not available-- that is true fan support, not scalpers selling to tourists.

i have also been to see the white sox five or six times-- i love white sox fans-- they truly love, and know baseball. ask a fan at a white sox game and they will tell you that the people at wrigley aren't baseball fans they are dilletantes-- there to socialize and be seen-- to party. i have had this conversation everytime i've gone to a white sox game, and the feeling has always been unanimous with everyone around me, with people on the train, and people in the restaurants and bars.
cub fans aren't even respected in their home town-- and if baseball was the reason for the visit to a game, wouldn't the sox have better attendance in the years they are better than the cubs. i have been in chicago when the white sox were fighting for first place and there were thousands of empty seats, and on the same day i was at a sold out wrigley when the cubs were fifth-- by the way, the next morning cubs on the front page, white sox page four.
and don't get me started about knowledge-- no contest -- white sox fans knew baseball, cubs fans didn't.

the reasons people hate you is you cubs fans-- it's like the obama line you gratuitously threw in-- are you implying that there aren't more democrats -- see, you didn't know what you were talking about, but it didn't keep you from talking-- that's what we see-- and not just in cincinnati, same thing when i lived in atlanta-- forty percent of the crowd cubs. atlanta fans are about as nice as people can get-- but on cub game days in would march fifteen to twenty thousand jerks and the stadium was an awful place to be-- your reputation is earned and deserved--

and one last point-- last year you clinched in cincy and you did the baseball equivalent of stomping on the fifty yard line-- sunday cabrerra celebrates his hit to win it in the ninth and you all cried on our blogs, leaving the stadium that cabrerra was classless--

and, of course, we will get the last laugh, you are the cubs, and you will, or should i say, are blowing this thing

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HOW OLD ARE YOU? IN THE 60S AND 70s WRIGLEY WAS FILLED WITH REDS FANS. GO BACK IN HISTORY LITTLE CHILD, AND LEARN.
NOW, HAVING SAID THAT, I DO APPLAUD CUB FANS FOR COMING DOWN HERE BUT YOU PROBABLY YEARN FOR A modern STADIUM. YOU GUYS TALK ABOUT OUR FANS BUT WHAT ABOUT YOUR ANTIQUATED FACILITY? THERE IS nothing ATTRACTIVE ABOUT WRIGLEY. TRY TO USE THE MEN'S ROOM - FIND A TROUGH AND BE JOSTLED ABOUT. IT IS A A classic DUMP. TAKE YOUR 'BLUE PRIDE' UP TO MICHIGAN - ANOTHER COLLECTION OF always loser FANS THAT YOU CAN IDENTIFY WITH IN YOUR STUPIDITY.

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I'm a Reds fan living in Chicago. I typically go to Wrigley only when I get invited to a rooftop, which is truly a singular baseball experience, or to see the Reds play. If I want to take my kids to a ballgame we head south to the Sox. Much better experience--better food, nicer fans, easy in and out. Wrigley is little more than an open air frat house. Amature drinkers dropping F-Bombs, booing everything that isn't a Cubs homerun. Arrogant, ignorant, imature fans who are much more versed on the boot & rally than the hit & run.

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"Cubs fans give Ryan Dempster a standing ovation for a perfect sacrifice bunt in the 2nd inning. Does anyone else do that?"

HAHAHAHA - you might as well have argued, "on occasion, even Cubs fans are aware of the importance of advancing the runner. Provided it is prior to the sixth inning - when we're sober enough to realize what happened. No other fanbase anywhere is that baseball savvy! We also cheer when one of our players crosses home plate to score a 'run' - who else would do THAT?"

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Watch it! You are gonna make grumpy old Cincinnati fan angry. Dont make them bring up the 70's buddy! My god. Cincinnati sports are patheitc. And it will not change anytime soon. All the sports fans there have to do is rip on other teams and cry about their ownership. I love how one of the comments said Cincinnati speaks with their wallets and ownership listens. You arent kidding they do pal! You have been to all kinds of playoffs in the last 15 years!! You keep showin em! Shut up and go to the games. Attendance over 20k the other night? WRONG! 20 thousand paid and half didnt even feel the need to show up! Pitiful.

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I live across the river in Northern KY, have been Reds fan my whole life, and so on.

Cincinnati sports fans, as far as I can tell, tend to roll over and die when their sports teams are doing poorly. And we haven't had much to cheer about over the last ten years or so. When you're being fed garbage for that long, it's tough to get excited, genuinely excited, when something goes right. There's an overwhelming feeling, when either the Reds or Bengals are going good at any point, that the other shoe will drop soon enough, and it ALWAYS does. It's enough to make a man not care anymore.

On the upside, though, it looks like the Reds now have an owner that actually is willing to put together a winning team, and a GM that knows how to do it. If they can put together a couple/few seasons in a row where they're above .500, I'd be willing to bet that you'll see attendance go up.

We're a city of fairweather fans. We have to put up with the Bengals; can you really blame us?

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Sunday is a perfect example of Cubdom. For three hours, it was cheering and jeering and "Let's Go Cubbies". I passed by a small canvas sign that read 'Wrigley Field South'. I hated to tell the owner that he misspelled 'Sucks', but I did anyway. His derisive, sarcastic "ha, ha, ha!" reminded me that I was dealing with someone who really knew baseball and could make a rejoinder that would have Oscar Wilde applauding in appreciation.
When Kerry Wood is announced at the ninth inning pitcher, there's a large roar. And when, five at-bats later, Chris Dickerson tied the game, there was an even louder roar from the Cincinnati fans. That roar was the 15,000 or so Reds fans, like myself, who grow tired of this baby bear crap in their stadium nine or so times a year. Yes, the Reds aren't what they used to be but the Cubs are what they've always been. To borrow from Winston Churchill, we may be horrible but your Cubs are worse and we can always get better.

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Ah, nothing like throwing stones from the porch of your glass house.. I suppose you've never been in the bleachers at Wrigley? No drunks there picking fights with opposing fans (sarcasm).

The stadium is empty when the team sucks? Yeah, that never happened in Wrigley either-- just look at the stellar loyalty of Cubs fans through the early 80's??!!

And is he really holding out the TB Rays as an example for small market teams? Really? One winning season in over a decade justifies the entire system?

No comment about Bleacher Bums throwing dozens of baseballs on the field? Nice home field decorum there. Very intelligent.

Then again, by the end of the article you sound like you'd agree with Marty Brennaman about Cubbie-brethren. I'll go a step further-- it's like your suburban university, the Fightin' Irish: a zillion "alumni" around the nation, barely knowledgeable about the game, but willing to gloat and sneer when you're on top. More about the image of being a fan than really knowing or caring about the game.

And that's without getting started on the pathetic, self-pity of curses and all that dreck.

Am I proud of Cincy attendance? No. Do I endorse the surliness from the GABP patrons? No. But when you're "organization" has had a partial dementia owner who turns off PCs to save money, gives the front office leftover Payday bars as a holiday gift, and doesn't pay for a WS victory spread or fly Eric Davis home from Oakland-- when you've had to endure Jim Bowden's B.S. for years upon years-- and when you've got the Mike Brown run Bungles contaminating the entire sports culture, well you get beat down and you just have to distance yourself for a bit. You care, you watch, you listen (by the way, how can you listen to a Cubs radio call?? Ron Santo's self-pity "why us?" doesn't help anyone respect the Cubs), but you don't have to shell out the $$$ to see every Thursday night game.

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Just my two cents, but I have to agree on several levels with this article. I am a 29 year old guy that has rooted for the Reds my entire life and attends about 50-70 games a year. Cincinnati loves to proclaim itself a "baseball" city, but only complains and trys to fondly remember the big red machine. However, that was a different time (for all of baseball) and the Reds have unfortunately had many years of sub par performance. For this, I excuse fans from attending games...and to be honest I enjoy it more half full because I can sit where I want. However, instead of complaining about the team all the time you watch the games with greater and greater regularity, which obviously effects attendance. If you don't like all the losing and want to make your "point," then do not attend and do not watch. Attendance would rise again in this very small market if 146 games a year were not being broadcast.

Nest, Cubs fans are so difficult to be around I actually had tickets to the game on Saturday and wanted to leave almost from the second we got there. They do act like total fools and THEY in fact try to start the fights. Their rants, standing for meaningless plays, obscene behavior and language, and general attitude are hard to stomach. If you are a real cubs fan then I applaud you, you have gone 100 years of generally being a piss poor team and still care about your team. However, three years ago or so the cubs lost like 100 games and the stadium was still half full with cubs fans acting like jerks. These fans were every bit as obnoxious that day as they were on Saturday.

I have been to 32 MLB stadiums and several times attended games in other stadiums in which the Reds play (which by the way the Reds actually travel pretty well, surprisingly). Reds fans (or at least the ones I have been a party to) are very respectful during the game. There is nothing wrong wearing your team's gear and cheering when your team SCORES....but standing for a bunt in an opposing stadium is ridiculous. You wouldn't disrespect your wife's parents in their home, so don't act like a fool in some one else's stadium. The fools in front of us, already drunk 10 minutes before the game, made total asses of themselves for the entire game (along with just about every other person sitting around us). This does make me hate Cub's fans, but not the Cubs. I save that for the Cardinals, as they are the class of this division and baseball because their fans are absolutely the best and their tradition is the only one that readily compares to those damn yankees.

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James said:
"Attendance would rise again in this very small market if 146 games a year were not being broadcast."

I call bull on that.How was this different than when the Reds were on broadcast television? I don't recall attendance being a problem back then.

Anyway, the solution is simple: once the Reds start winning (and winning consistently), the seats will start filling up with more Reds fans.

And I do believe there is a light at the end of the tunnel for us long suffering Reds fans. Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Edison Valquez and Johnny Cueto is just the start. This will be a good team in the next season or two.

In BCast, Walt and Dusty do I trust.

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One difference no one is really pointing out: Reds fans don't support a loser. Cubs fans still show up regardless of the record. Is that a badge of honor or just a sign of foolishness?

I never understood the badge of honor. If you show up to a game and cheer for a bunch of players who botch sacrifice bunts, can't hit, can't throw, can't field, can't pitch, can't manage to do anything except look like the Bad News Bears, then isn't that a little...stupid? Yay! We can't get a bunt down! Yay! Edwin Encarnacion threw another one into the dugout! Yay! Francisco Cordero blew another save, and he's the highest paid player on the team because Jocketty traded Junior and Adam Dunn! Hooray! We have no one besides rookies and AAAA players!

Kinda sounds stupid, doesn't it?

Do you think ownership cares why games sell out as long as they make their money? How else do you go 100 years without a championship? "Heck, we're selling out and we suck. Why do we need to sign better players or draft smarter?"

Of course, as baseball economics changed, that eventually became, "Oh, wait...we're in a huge media market and can't afford to continue to suck? Let's buy a bunch of players like Soriano, Lee, etc., get a big-time manager (Piniella), and maybe draft and develop someone whose arm doesn't fall off."

Cubs fans are lucky their ownership actually decided to win. After all, the Cubs could still suck and attendance wouldn't change. There's too much beer and lifestyle at stake.

In Cincinnati, such miracles don't happen. If you want ownership to build a winner, you don't show up and cheer for Andy Phillips and Jolbert Cabrera or anyone else who doesn't belong in the majors, or they'll keep running garbage like that that out there like they've done the last 8 years. Just like with any business, if you want a product to improve, you complain and hit the business in the wallet. Do you really think a town as conservative as Cincinnati wouldn't behave this way? If demanding better makes you a crappy fan, so be it.

In Cincinnati, you can't just expect 30,000 people to show up wanting to get drunk and rowdy and -- hey, waitaminute, there's a baseball game going on right now...honey, take off your shirt! Doesn't happen that way.

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You know, I was just about to get mean and nasty here when I arrived at "Cubs fans' behavior on the road is why people hate us and the team."

Kudos for you for having the self awareness to recognize this and understand that visiting Cardinal, Brewer and Pirate fans are not subjected to the treatment you were on the receiving end of (though the Cleveland fans probably feel your pain). You’ve summed up my perspective in a nutshell. I was utterly surprised to find that assessment at the end of your criticism, which stung a bit.

I can no longer attend Reds games because I moved to Portland, Oregon. I lived within driving distance for most of my entire life until I moved away in 1996. And I was around for the genesis of the a**hole Cubs fan movement in the late 1980s. I will never forget the late season game I went to in 1989. It was the 3rd game of a weekday series on a Thursday. The Cubs had taken the first two. When I arrived at the game, a large crowd of Cubs fans were standing outside of a bus TRYING TO BRING BROOMS INTO RIVERFRONT STADIUM. I told a friend of mine from Boston that story and his reply was simply, “if anyone tried that at Fenway, it would be ON.”

Later, during the game, a group of 3 or 4 preteens escorted by a couple of 20-something males were sitting in front I and the guy who would later be my Best Man. The Cubs took an early lead (bringing on obnoxious comments from the group in front of us), the Reds pulled off a great comeback in the 8th to take a one run lead (silencing said group), then blew it in the ninth (eliciting a "told you we were going to win" with that special snotty tone only a middle-schooler could pull off). I replied with a prescient retort regarding the coming playoffs. I’ll tell you, the visiting Cardinal fans just don’t act like that.

I’ve hated the Cubs ever since and taken deep glee usually reserved for “That School Up North” with each playoff choke job since.

My only comment regarding the first part of the article is that you are right, Cincinnati is no longer a great baseball town. Only, I don’t really see the Reds performance as being the cause. I was living in Cincinnati the year of the strike that killed the World Series. The attitude towards professional baseball really changed in 1994. A lot of folks in Cincy lost their love of the game after that year. Back in 1995, I was in attendance at the last playoff game the Reds won. They were playing the Dodgers in the first round of the expanded playoffs. The stadium was not sold out and there was no sense of celebration after the win, the clincher in a Best of Five series. And the Reds, I’m sorry to say, have never really delivered much of a reason for people to love the game there again.

In any case, I hope a few Cubs fans take your assessment to heart. At the very least, none should wonder why they don’t get any love on the road. You get what you give.

Regards,

-D

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