Just a Reminder: Baseball Players Have Always Cheated

I enjoyed this column, and it is definitely something to consider, however: go to the stats and look at Mantle, Mays, Aaron and any of those other Players---did their numbers "increase" as they got older and middle age kicked in?

Well, did it?

Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, and even Clemens--who retired twice and still came back to win games--with the help and continuous use of performance enhancing drugs---which from all i have read was commensurate as they aged and their performance would normally have waned...Say what you want, but I will keep my pitchfork and my "asterisks" within arms reach. If any of these players go into the Hall, then Maris and Rose need to be enshrined as well.

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Jeff and Zev,

Attention Dumb and Dumber! How convoluted and perverted can you get? Your ignorance has no bounds!

So Mantle is sicker than a dog in late '61 and Mel Allen sends him to his doctor. Dr Max Jacobson later becomes well known in celebrity circles for somehow making you feel good quickly, hence, Dr Feelgood. He was a state licensed MD! Mantle was sick and went as a patient. There was nothing more to it. Nothing criminal and no intent to cheat. By the way, Jacobson ended up being President Kennedy's doctor for a period of time.

So next you guys try to slime Koufax, who was merely trying to describe why he was forced to retire, due to an arthritic left arm and a chronic circulatory problem, when he made his comment. Koufax was a patient of the late, great, Dr Robert Kerlin. Kerlin was the team physician and founder of the legendary Kerlin-Jobe orthopedic medical center. Koufax was properly treated and medicated by a state licensed MD.

Then you use an anecdotal story about Henry Aaron admitting to taking "a" amphetamine tablet "one time.” That is beyond a stretch, as is the Mays rumor!

Can't you understand what happened starting in the late 90's? Some players conspired with dealers, and surreptitiously used performance enhancing drugs to cheat their competition. They plotted and planned when and how to take PEDs. Quietly and under the radar, so that no one really knew what they were doing, to hide their criminal activities. Owners and GM's looked the other way, not wanting to know, obviously benefitting financially! Sports writers were not co-conspirators, they were too busy trying to be important as the acted as shills for the teams and owners, while of course consuming their weight in free food and drink! Being buddies with stars felt great to these nerds.

So stow the apologetic nonsense in your thinly veiled attempt to restore credibility to Barry, Roger, Mark, Sammy, and Rafael. It will not work. They failed the character test by not only cheating their peers, they also defrauded the American public, taking our hard earned money as we watched what essentially turned out to be a WWE/MLB "show!"

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And Ol' Man Ibanez sits on the DL with an unspecified groin injury during his greatest season ever. Life just ain't fair, is it?

Rumor has it Raul's groin stopped growin' due to a recent development which caused his body to become deficient in human growth hormone.

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reese must be a mets fan

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How funny Carmel ... that you continue to place the older players on pedestals and have your version and perspective which of course is the only viable one ... LOL ... Hate to break it to you but steroids were widely used from the late 50's to the late 80's ... and speed and a wide range of PEDs were used since baseball began. Your hero's are not perfect and the odds are they used something to enhance their play thru the years. This was a refreshing article not based on people like you who want to dog all players from this generation and promote the old timers. Funny how you know it all and know it better! Bet you are a conservative too! People who are into it do whatever they can to succeed and that has always been the case. Two years ago it was all piled on Bonds shoulders and lo and behold ... then the Rocket got caught and A-Rod and the list goes on and on. I grew up watching SF & LA play in the late 50's and remember hearing that pitchers were using "special" things to help their arms recover and pitch on 3 days rest ... and had heard that Koufax, Drysdale and many others were jucieing even back then. I crack up at those who try and portray the old timers as some sacred god ... they did it and most with a brain know it! This is all getting way too much press and we spend way too much money on this stupid stuff! Get over it! The old timers used TOO!

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Reikilight,

I'm afraid I will have to disagree with your position on this matter and award this fight to Carmel on cuts! Rule number one in this kind of debate is to deal in facts. I read Carmel's piece and never saw where the "old timers" were placed on a pedestal. When you cite "the odds are" you immediately lose credibility. Deal in facts my man. You don't have any. The players you and the authors attack aren't "old timers" to those who know and love the game. They played mostly in the 50's and 60's. There were "old timers" who played in the dead ball era, and those from the 20's. I also don't see where Carmel idolizes any of those players in any way. Looks to me like facts which argue against the "well, everyone did it!" In fact, I see nothing that condemns today's players. Carmel said "some players." You say PEDS have been used since the beginning of the game. You don't really mean to argue that do you? They were playing the game professionally well before the turn of the last century. That means the late 1800's! How about that for "old timers!" I would have to argue that was well before "better living thru chemistry." I see where you claim to have heard that Koufax and Drysdale, and others, were "jucieing." (I guess you mean juicing?) You must be kidding! Those of us who really were around never heard of such nonsense. Interesting how you attack and speculate the Carmel is a "conservative." Well, maybe that really does say something about you. Those of us who dearly love this game range from ultra liberal to hard line conservative. We also come in all colors and both genders. There have been great baseball players in every era of the game. Each generation gave us greatness and wonderful memories. Most of today's players are cut from the same cloth. Doing their best every time they lace-up their cleats. Don't paint all of today's or yesterday's players with a broad brush. Carmel never suggested that. In the end, you seem to be nothing more than a Bonds fan! Any objective rereading of your comments, while reflecting on what has transpired since the Mark and Sammy homerun show, would lead anyone to suspect you of being a Barry fan, and much younger than the 60+ years old you would have had to be to have "heard" about Koufax and Drysdale in the late 50's!

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"so right there you've got mantle, aaron, mays, and koufax all connected to some sort of performance-enhancing chemical"

uh, no you don't. you have a couple of one time "stories", a testimony from a drug dealers trial, and koufax saying he was half high(obviously referring to pain meds) when he pitched.

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People don't seem to understand that virtually 90% of the players since the 50s have been taking illegal performance enhancing drugs. Players didn't have to go buy them, because there were always supplies in the clubhouse. For many years, the clubs provided them directly. Then after the clubs got a little more cautious, individual players like Hank Aaron became dealers in the clubhouse. This was all testified to in the Pittsburgh drug trials in the eighties. Even if you didn't want to take these drugs, you probably took them anyway, because liquids in the clubhouse were spiked. And make no mistake - while many players laugh it off and claim that it was just like drinking a lot of coffee, the reality is that any scientist in the field will confirm that that's nonsense - that the amphetamines the players were taking were powerful drugs that have been proven to enhance performance.

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Just to correct myself, I meant Willie Mays in the previous post, not Hank Aaron

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