Manny Ramirez's biography added another highlight on Monday night when he hit his 537th career home run. That put him into sole possession of 15th place on the all-time list, breaking a tie with Mickey Mantle. In typical Manny fashion, he was blissfully unaware of the import of his dinger. "To be honest, I haven't been keeping track of who I've passed or where I'm at. I just wait for you guys to tell me."For many of us baseball fans, though, the home run gave rise to an opportunity to see where Ramirez ranks among the greatest baseball players of all time. Mantle seems like a timely comparison, one that Reid Cherner of USA Today took up on Tuesday.
Cherner is wise to point out from the get-go that Mantle was a better all-around baseball player than Ramirez, but uses a slew of statistics to argue that Ramirez may be the superior hitter. He's got more doubles, homers and RBI than the Mick, and a higher slugging percentage, OPS and batting average to boot.
The problem with the analysis is that it's based on raw numbers, with no attempt to create a neutral context to view the two players. Ramirez has slugged .594 during a career that saw his leagues post a .437 number, while Mantle posted a .557 against a .386 league. That difference is represented in OPS+ as well, which tosses in ballpark calculations and spits out a 172 for Mantle against a 156 for Ramirez.
The positives for Mantle don't stop there. Ramirez continues to lose out when looking at the weighted stats, available via Fangraphs. They show a distinct edge for Mantle, one made larger if you decide to focus on each player's prime years and give less weight to Mantle's sharp decline phase. Ramirez, a year older than Mantle in his last season, hasn't had the same decline, which may have something to do with the drug use that got him suspended for 50 games earlier this season.
That brings us to the stickiest part of this comparison. Given each man's off-field peccadilloes, you could make a pretty strong argument that you'd rather have Ramirez than Mantle. The difference between their performances is mitigated by the fact that Manny continues to rake at 37, while Mickey had already retired to the bar at that age. When push comes to shove, you'd probably prefer having a player taking steroids over one who drank too much.
That said, I'd still take Mantle over Ramirez because he was the better player and the better hitter.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
7-21-2009 @ 3:45PM
yunyunwang69 said...
definitely going with mantle because he actually played the game honestly. Manny and Arod used to be some of my fav players but now they're a bunch of disgraces with all the steroids.
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7-21-2009 @ 5:11PM
JOSHUA said...
Mantle was the man, you bet! Manny now belongs with McGwire, Sosa, Palmerio and all those questionable losers!
7-21-2009 @ 4:07PM
samwise246 said...
Mantle was the man. One can hardly claim that alcohol is a PED can one? The dramatic decline in Mantle's career was due more to injuries than to drinking. Asa good as Mick was, we can only wonder how good he could have been if he had stayed healthy.
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7-21-2009 @ 4:21PM
jzz3skys said...
I think the watermark for performance is raised over time in any activity, however, Mick's winning the Triple Crown's gotta count for something and there hasn't been another one since Yaz. Pujols may be able to do it.
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7-21-2009 @ 4:32PM
billyp01 said...
when i think of mantle, i think of one of baseballs all-time greats. when i think of manny, i think of that one time he tried to catch the ball in boston and fell on top of it and rolled around for a minute til he found it..
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7-21-2009 @ 5:13PM
JOSHUA said...
Mantle was the man, you bet! Manny now belongs with McGwire, Sosa, Palmerio and all those questionable losers!
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7-21-2009 @ 5:13PM
ANDREW said...
Mantle for sure! Manny needs to be kicked out of the mlb along with a-rod because i am a die hard rays fan because i was born in tampa and they are clean un like big market teams like the redsox yankees and dogers the mlb needs to kick out every non clean player i dont care who it is
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7-21-2009 @ 5:28PM
fperrotto said...
Compare Mantle off the booze and without injuries and think of what he could have accomplished then compare it to Manny off the Steriods and what he would have accomplished
Statistics don't tell everything
Which one would you choose as the better ball Player. Hands down THE MICK
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7-21-2009 @ 6:10PM
tonytiger18 said...
It is difficult to compare stats of players from different eras.
During the 50's and 60's, there were considerably less teams than today. That means of course, there were less players in the Majors. Consequently, Mantle played against better competition while Manny faces players that would have been in the minors. Most teams in Mantle's time had two and three pitchers that would be considered stars today, probably aces on most current rosters.
Manny played in Fenway park with that short left field. The Mick played in the old stadium where the dimmensions worked against all right handed hitters ( How about Joe D - he lost at least 100 career homers) He did have an advantage in right field. But all the new parks in the last decade have smaller dimensions.
The Mick was a competitor,drunk or not. He always hustled even when hurt. The Mick was a winner and his teams always won.
To compare Manny to the Mick is a joke.
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7-22-2009 @ 1:27AM
James said...
You have it backward. Todays players are much better than in Mantles era. Black players were just coming into baseball. Now we have quite a few black players, Dominician players that are much more athletic than white players. Most players in Mantles era couldn't play in today's game. Today's players are much better than in the 50's and 60's. That's true in all sports.
7-21-2009 @ 6:44PM
Joe said...
Are you kidding? Mantle was a great all-round player who treated everyone with respect and was loved by his teammates. Winning was everything to him.
Manny . . is a cheat.
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7-21-2009 @ 6:51PM
mmvibe said...
I'm old enough to have watched Mantle play (71 yrs old). Mantle played in the old Yankee Stadium which was like a canyon. No green monster to bang fly ball outs into singles and double. No steriods to get you hitting as good on the last day of the season as you did on the first day.
Mantle was a threat on both sides of the plate; one of the fastest runners in the majors. He also could play the field without folks holding their breath every time a pop up came his way.
Manny is an extremely talented and gifted hitter, and a clutch hitter too!
But let's not try to compare the 'roids stats with the old timers.
They played 154 games-not 162......that in itself skews stats!
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7-22-2009 @ 1:15AM
James said...
You're joking right? The 'Green Monster' in left field at Fenway is 37 feet high. So many of Manny's double would of been homeruns in other parks.
Just for your information. Steroids were around in sports in the 1950's. All those 'heros' were just as juiced up. They just didn't talk about it. Steroids and other PEDs peaked in the 1960's. Read this link. It may be a little more informative. Despite that and the fact that I do like Manny, Mantle was the better all around player. Hands Down.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-05-03-steroids-house_x.htm
7-21-2009 @ 7:02PM
Martin said...
You think it's easy hitting home runs after taking a bunch of female fertility drugs? The bloating, the cramps, the hot flashes. Give Manny his due. He has gone where few "men" have gone.
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7-21-2009 @ 7:22PM
dewit202 said...
Martin I LOVE YOUR POST actually lol for real. Hilarious. Thanks !
7-21-2009 @ 7:31PM
Matt Snyder said...
Yeah, I agree. Pretty solid comedic effort.
7-21-2009 @ 7:39PM
jm4279 said...
Pretty stupid article. manny is an ass! Of course he doesn't pay attention to HR list because his brain is MUSH!!!
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7-21-2009 @ 7:57PM
Mike G said...
One very important thing that no one ever brings up is the pitchers mound! It was higher by at least 6 inches when Mantle played, thus making it more difficult for the hitters...Thats the reason MLB lowered it, to create more offense...Mantle hands down over Manny!!!!!
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7-21-2009 @ 9:11PM
ptcards said...
manny couldn't carry mantles jock strap
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7-21-2009 @ 10:11PM
whazcallywabbit said...
Mickey Mantle Sir Rosis of the Liver or Manny HGH Ramirez...Booze was and is legal during Mantles years and last I heard it doesn't help your performance. Manny got caught cheating so there shouldnt even be a comparison here. Where does Manny rank..I'd say with the rest of the Hall of Shamers...Remove him from the record books and bar him from the Hall of Fame. He dont deserve to be mentioned with the greats such as Mantle. Imagine what numbers Mantle would have put up if he had taken steroids. I can promise you that Ramirez would never have gotten close to his mark.
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